Gary Gygax Dies, Goes To Hell
Last week Gary Gygax died. Just who is he? In 1974 Gary helped create the ‘role-playing’ games that caused a famous pandemic of suicide. Together with Dave Arneson he conspired to make ‘Dungeons and Dragons‘.
Fans are crying over their dungeon-maps, but should we weep for a man who is going to Hell?
Every RPG (nerd-speeak for the kind of game where you win points by commiting crimes) played today, from Boot Hill, to World of Warcraft, to EverQuest and beyond, take from Gary Gygax’s original concepts.
D&D is marketed as entertanment, however it is not a game at all as our friends at Chick Publications have repeatedly demonstrated. Dungeons and Dragons is a satanism-and-suicide how-to manual.
After playing Advanced-Dungeons & Dragons, Marilyn Manson, the lesbian shock-rocker satanist, was inspired to build his own dungeon. Since the perverted rock-star was not able to obtain dragons, he populated it with the next-best thing: Homosexuals.
D&D is called a “Role Playing Gaime” because players are encouraged to consider-alternative lifestyles, particularly gender-swapping. Men may play as women, and women play as men, having ‘adventures’ which quickly degrade into sex-orgies.
Dungeon-Masters encourage players to ‘act’ their part as much as possible. Most gaming sessions will involve nudity and copious actual or simulated gay-sex.
STR FACT FILE: Has ‘Dungeons and Dragons’ been positively identified with ritual abuse and death? Yes. When players ‘die’ in D&D the game requires them to submit to some sort of forfeit- which usually involves some form of sexual humiliation but might involve committing a theft or murder.
Fantasy gaming introduced many murderous concepts, where people can play assassins and use poisons on their neighbors. In the land of Greyhawk where all D&D adventures are set ideas such as spells, magic, flying-horses, and inter-racial sexuality are designed to tempt kids away from the real-world.
At STR we would never stoop to exploiting a topic as painful as a person’s death: However we feel that this evil man’s sudden death should serve as a warning to all those who oppose Jesus and his message of love and salvation.
Let us be clear: our Earth is not the land of Greyhawk, there is no ’saving throw’ other than to dully embrace Jesus. There is still time for you to repent, because unless you do otherwise you will soon find yourself face-to-face with the real dungeon-master - in HELL.
Dear God,
Thank you for using Gary Gygax as an example to all those who take your name in vain.
His death will serve as an example to occultists, homosexuals and Christ-hating liberals.
Thank you for ending this sinner’s Life.
59 Comments so far
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“RPG (nerd-speeak for the kind of game where you win points by commiting crimes)”
RPG= Role Playing Game, not criminal sim you fuckwit.
“Dungeons and Dragons is a satanism-and-suicide how-to manual.”
WTF?! It’s a game you stupid cunts.
“Marilyn Manson, the lesbian”
HE is a guy nimrod.
“alternative lifestyles, particularly gender-swapping. Men may play as women, and women play as men, having ?¢‚ǨÀúadventures?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ which quickly degrade into sex-orgies.”
You clearly have never played any RPG in your life.
“Most gaming sessions will involve nudity and copious actual or simulated gay-sex.”
See above response.
“Fantasy gaming introduced many murderous concepts, where people can play assassins”
Hey, what have you got against Assassins’ Creed?
“inter-racial sexuality are designed to tempt kids away from the real-world.”
Coming from someone who never played D&D obviously.
“At STR we would never stoop to exploiting a topic as painful as a person?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s death”
HAHAHAHAHA! FUCKING HYPOCRITES!
“Let us be clear: our Earth is not the land of Greyhawk”
No shit Sherlock.
“there is no ?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢saving throw?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ other than to dully embrace Jesus”
Yes there is, it’s called MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN MIND ON WHAT TO BELIEVE IN
woohoo Random Aussie/ New Zealander you tell charles roast.
and charles roast your gonna be disappointed when your standing at the gates of hell cause that’s where christians like you belong.
“Fans are crying over their dungeon-maps, but should we weep for a man who is going to Hell?”
LOL. Too bad for you that they made it possible for anyone to easily come up with his own. D&D will live on, so Mr. Gygax will leave a legacy.
“Every RPG (nerd-speeak for the kind of game where you win points by commiting crimes) ”
RPG = Role Playing Game. And quite a lot aren?Ǭ¥t about criminality.
“D&D is marketed as entertanment, however it is not a game at all as our friends at Chick Publications have repeatedly demonstrated. Dungeons and Dragons is a satanism-and-suicide how-to manual.
Bullshit x 10. It doesn?Ǭ¥t even contain satanism. Neither any advise on how to suicide.
“Every RPG (nerd-speeak for the kind of game where you win points by commiting crimes) played today, from Boot Hill, to World of Warcraft, to EverQuest and beyond, take from Gary Gygax?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s original concepts.”
Wrong. WoW and many other RPG?Ǭ¥s use completely differrent systems.
“D&D is called a ?¢‚Ǩ?ìRole Playing Gaime?¢‚Ǩ¬ù because players are encouraged to consider-alternative lifestyles, particularly gender-swapping. Men may play as women, and women play as men, having ?¢‚ǨÀúadventures?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ which quickly degrade into sex-orgies.”
…actually possible. But neither in the spirit of the game, nor encouraged in any way.
“Dungeon-Masters encourage players to ?¢‚ǨÀúact?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ their part as much as possible. Most gaming sessions will involve nudity and copious actual or simulated gay-sex.”
Source or it?Ǭ¥s bullshit.
“Yes. When players ?¢‚ǨÀúdie?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ in D&D the game requires them to submit to some sort of forfeit- which usually involves some form of sexual humiliation but might involve committing a theft or murder.”
Wrong, it doesn?Ǭ¥t. It?Ǭ¥s simply “Oh well, roll a new character.” PS: Now that GM is bad.
“Fantasy gaming introduced many murderous concepts, where people can play assassins and use poisons on their neighbors. In the land of Greyhawk where all D&D adventures are set ideas such as spells, magic, flying-horses, and inter-racial sexuality are designed to tempt kids away from the real-world.”
Somehow D&D is a bit too dark and grim to be for kids anyway. And if someone can?Ǭ¥t distinguish fantasy from reality, said person is to blame and needs some attention. Or should we declare alcohol and tobacco illegal becuase some people go overboard with it and suffer bad consequences?
“At STR we would never stoop to exploiting a topic as painful as a person?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s death: However we feel that this evil man?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s sudden death should serve as a warning to all those who oppose Jesus and his message of love and salvation.”
Yeah, it?Ǭ¥s not like you always gloat if someone you don?Ǭ¥t like dies. But hey, you are morally dead, so I?Ǭ¥m not surprised anymore.
“Let us be clear: our Earth is not the land of Greyhawk, there is no ?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢saving throw?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ other than to dully embrace Jesus. There is still time for you to repent, because unless you do otherwise you will soon find yourself face-to-face with the real dungeon-master - in HELL.”
I?Ǭ¥m physically shaking. Really. If all this biblical bullshit turns out to be true, I?Ǭ¥d not be surprised if hell would have been taken over by humanity by now. Their capabilities are rather ridicolous compared with ours today.
That?Ǭ¥s it, I?Ǭ¥m gonna play Dark heresy with some friends today. Oughta be fun.
The German Guy
IMPEACH BUSH!
It is funny - the Europeans say, Shock-Rock was born in the States - and it is actually true! I remember to Alice Cooper for instant - or Lou Reed - Iggy Pop or Black Sabbath and such guys and rockbands from the 70ies - all these guys are Americans. Or do you remeber to Frank Zappa and his “funny” or even shocking lyrics? Some find it shocking - some find it just funny!
The conservatives in the US were incensed by Zappa`s lyrics. All of these far-right Republicans and ultra-conservative people criticized him - but he didn`t care - he became a big man in music business sold his records all over the globe and earned millions of Dollars. As Frank Zappa died over 10 years ago, all ultra-conservatives said, he is going to Hell - this is the judgement of God!
We don`t know, if someone is going to Hell or not - just God knows - and this is ok. I don`t want to prejudge!
I still like Frank Zappa`s song - but I am not interested in the songs of Marylin Manson. But his is definitely not a Lesbian - Manson is a guy - and has a girlfriend - this is a fact!
I am not very interested in the rock music of today - but I know a lot about the rock scene in the 70ies. We had a lot of such rock musicans like Manson in the 70ies - it was called Glammer Rock or Shock Rock.
Phantasy in cartoons are ok - cause I am also painting cartoons since my childhood. The old Grimm`s fairy-tales are full of phantasy - like flying horses - witches - wizards - millions of kids in the 60ies (who are in my age today) still remember to all these frairy tales - but there is nothing to criticize. Sometimes I think - you want to be holier than the pope!
Peter Vienna
To this subject D&D: Role-playings are not new - in the past people played it on stage - in small private theaters. Nowadays it has a new name - D&D. Sometimes, just a small number of young people can`t differentiate between phantasy and reality. I remember to a young man in Vienna. He is technician, he became insane after such role-playings. The people were laughing at him, cause sometimes he was dressed like a witch or like a wizard, next week he was dressed like a ghost and so on. He actually became insane - now he is ok again. Sometimes it can be dangerous - especially for people, who have troubles with their identity - a psychotic illness can appear - but it`s uncommon! Peter Vienna
Gary Gygax had a wife and lived in Wisconsin. Was writer and game designer and became successful with his game D&D. I mean, this is the typically example of an American Dream. Do you know what God really likes or not? You don`t know, nobody of us know it - we just believe!! This is a big difference! I spent 8 years in a convent school - don`t tell me something about the Bible - I figured out, you just read these parts, which you personally like - and not these parts, which are also very important to be a good Christian. For instant: You use swearwords - sometimes you don`t tell the truth - you dont “love” or accept your “enemies” or different meanings……….you negate a lot of important orders which are actually important in the Bible to be a so called “good Christian”.
Peter Vienna
Peter the road to hell is paved with good intentions: your mistaken kindness for Gary Gygax and role-playing games will have you burning for eternity!
Always Right
The road to Hell is also paved with bad actions, Always Wrong. Consider yourself warned.
Having actually observed a D&D game, I can say with certainty that this article is a pile of bullshit. Mr. Gygax co-created a revolutionary game; why STR seems to be declaring a war on communal entertainment is beyond me.
Having actually observed a D&D game, I can say with certainty that this article is a pile of bullshit.
Having observed a D&D game I can tell you are biased. Charles may not be an RPG fanatic, he may not commit axe-murders because his dungeon-master told him to but what he can do is state the plain facts and put together a clear argument.
Thank you Charles - the world needs to know about the dangers of RPG criminal games.
Jimmy : LeftTurn is not biaised. He just knows what he is talking about.
And Charles can’t state the plain facts because he doesn’t know anything about role-playing games. But it’s just the usual way the STR crew write their articles : making up facts the more biaised way they can thought. So I’m not really surprised…
ITFAN - why is it that LeftTurn failed to address the overwhelming majority of issues raised in Charles’ sensible article? It’s so typical of liberals to simply deny or mock, but ask them to address the spesific issues? That would be another story.
I’m sorry - Charles’ research has been impeccable as usual.
Jimmy
http://blogsnot4brownback.wordpress.com/2008/03/07/a-message-to-our-skeptics-and-the-trolls-that-are-affiliated-with-republican-faith-chat/
@jimmy goddard you stupid idiot christians are’nt supposed to swear haha.
“I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m sorry - Charles?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ research has been impeccable as usual.”
See comments 1 & 3
Indeed;
The onus isn’t on me until you provide some proof (as much as you abhor the word) of these claims. Until then, it is outright ficticious speculation and therefore warrants no acknowledgement.
It’s so typical of STR to simply pick and choose a specific incident, but ask them to hold it in perspective to the greater picture? That would be another story.
Right back at ya.
haha LeftTurn XD. STR who died and made you god for saying gary gygax went to hell?
Just who died? How about Jesus Christ who is our Lord and Savior and who died on the cross for sinners like you!
Always Right
That doesn’t answer her question.
STR,you have to review this Satanic game it has to be brought to your attention
the title of the game is
Star Wars:knights of the old republic.Hurry!!!For the safety of our children’s minds!
STR,you have to review an even more threatening “RPG”,Star Wars:knight of the old republic.You must review it,this Satanic game must be brought toyou and all loyal,God-fearing parents that read STR.Hurry you must buy it and review it.
Yours in Christ,Joseph.
STR,you have to review an “RPG” that’s even more threatening to our children than this one,except it’s a computer game and the title of the game is “Star Wars:knights of the old republic” please! you must review it and warn all decent,
God-fearing parents that visit this site and help protect their children.If you do this you can expect a very large donation from me that should more than be enough to pay for the game.
yours in Christ,Joseph.
STR,you have to review a “RPG” computer game that is even more theatening to the children of America than this one.The title of the game is “Star Wars:knights of the old republic” you have to review it and warn all of the god-fearing,decent parents that visit this Godly site.If you post an article warning parents about this satanic game,you can expect a large $1,500 donation from me every month.
Yours in Christ,Joseph Smith
Jer Snider i hope the comment stop bitching whore was directed at STR and not me.
In a word, just…stop. Seriously. you guys have it all wrong.
I mean…I’m a christian myself, and..gloating about the death of a rather cool dude? I had the pleasure of meeting Gary a few times and frankly, he was a pretty fun guy. Shame on you for being such assholes! I play D&D myself, and none of the groups I’ve ever run or played with did anything like what you say, and I’ve played for about 10 years! And seriously, promoting a publication by Jack Thompson? Sigh….
And just as a follow up…
The Empty Chair - Eulogy for a Gamer
There is an empty chair,
at the table this day.
A hallowed place where,
a friend once played.
The roll of his dice,
my ears long to hear.
Or perhaps it would suffice,
if he should suddenly appear.
With character sheet in hand,
and a bag of Cheeze-doodles to share.
All his friends would stand,
as he sat in the empty chair.
I hear his voice a-callin?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢,
and it ties my heart in a knot.
For he cries, ?¢‚Ǩ?ìThough a comrade has fallen,
You must play for those who cannot.?¢‚Ǩ¬ù
We conquered worlds on the run,
he and I in the name of fun.
And as others may come and go,
I make both both friend and foe.
But what I long for most,
is our past now long a ghost.
- Poem from our pals at KenzerCo.
Hoody Hoo Gary!
And just as a follow up…
The Empty Chair - Eulogy for a Gamer
There is an empty chair,
at the table this day.
A hallowed place where,
a friend once played.
The roll of his dice,
my ears long to hear.
Or perhaps it would suffice,
if he should suddenly appear.
With character sheet in hand,
and a bag of Cheeze-doodles to share.
All his friends would stand,
as he sat in the empty chair.
I hear his voice a-callin?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢,
and it ties my heart in a knot.
For he cries, ?¢‚Ǩ?ìThough a comrade has fallen,
You must play for those who cannot.?¢‚Ǩ¬ù
We conquered worlds on the run,
he and I in the name of fun.
And as others may come and go,
I make both both friend and foe.
But what I long for most,
is our past now long a ghost.
- Poem from our pals at KenzerCo.
R.I.P. Gary Gygax 1938-2008
Roll’n in his grave
Do’h…double post…
This is…Simply..Well the word im looking for escapes me, I dont beliave the word i am looking for exsists yet in the english language, so ill use the next one in line…
Trashy..Yes, this is very trashy, your little “Blog” and crap is extreamly trashy.
A man has died, sad thing, yet you feel the need to bash him? Why couldnt you do that while he was alive? Why couldnt you have some guts and shit talk him and bash him to his face WHILE he was alive? In Person? Your nothing more then some fool with an internet connection and time to waste between inbreeding with your genetically inferior family.
People like you make me sick, and I’m not the only one. Heres an idea for you…
Shut your fucking mouth, and stop trying to make the world a worse place then it already is. And have some more god damn respect for the dead. I hope when you die, people make a habit of deficating upon your grave you bastard.
D&D is no doubt an addictive game, but what gives you the right to say dogmatically that a given person has gone to Hell? That is for God to decide.
And people are not saved by works - but by faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning work on the cross. This is something people like you sometimes seem to forget.
If Gary Gygax went to Hell, it would be because he didn’t have faith in Jesus. If he went to Heaven, it would be because he did. Do you claim to KNOW whether Gygax was a believer or not?
@Franjk Norman thank you so much for saying that well said and well done.
@NotUrBusinessCunt well said dude well said.
haha STR you just got pwned.
@stop video games get a fucking life you fucking bible beating loser and leave video games alone stupid nimrod i hope you get wailed on unmercifully for giving those son of a bitches a donation get a life3 loser.
Wow, you’re a sad, sad person. Gary claimed to have faith in Christ, just as you do. Gary claimed that he trusted in Christ alone for his salvation, just as you do.
Gary, on the other hand, was not known for making ignorant remarks about things he knew nothing about. When he spoke, it was generally from a position of knowledge.
You, however, seem to revel in the fact that you are completely ignorant of anything having to do with Role-Playing Games. You advertise the fact by your ramblings regarding what you believe RPG’s to be. This shows that either you have never even sat at a table with gamers, or else you have and are completely oblivious to what goes on around you.
Perhaps you ought to spend less time attacking the faith of those the Lord has taken to be with Himself, and more time using the brain that the Lord presumably gave you to actually do some research next time. But you won’t, I know. You’re too busy being reactionary and calling anything Satanic that you don’t in the least understand.
Sucks to be you, mate.
Dear Posting Folks,
I have read all of the above and would like to site some real life examples of what role-playing can really do to you.
Here is my story, I was 17 when approached by a pale youth who thought I may be interested in some role playing. I must admit to being tempted so I went along to a session of something called Tunnels and Trolls where I was plunged into a fantasy world where I created my own hero and directed his actions like a god. It was so addictive, we would meet every weekend to play our characters, nurse them through adventure after adventure. After time we hardened to the pain of others, we would torture those in the game world who we needed something from. We would kill all those who opposed us, and the GM would give us POINTS for doing so, enabling us to become even more powerful and spread the slaughter without end.
We all learned things about ourselves and others from these fantasy worlds. We learned that people should be judged by thier actions not their words or looks. We considered goblins, dwarfs, elves, orcs . fairies, wizards and whitches as friends and fought alongside them without caring about race, gender or creed.
BUT…
There was a darker side, when we started playing these games I became more interested in the occult which lead me away from the faith of my childhood and took me down the left hand path. In time I became a witch, practicing the old arts under the full moon. Again the gaming world that was controlling our minds continued to have an effect on my friends, one - a self confessed athiest, had the audacity to be unconcerned about my new direction, he planned no intervention, did not try to section me as any true friend might. Another, and the leader of our group who most often played the role of GM (God Mind) in our games, was (and is) a dedicated Christian, a pillar of the Church and NOT ONCE did he condemn me to hell, NOT ONCE did he denounce me in his Church, nor did he, ever, try to burn me at the stake - now what kind of Christian is that - treating his friends with love and compassion even if they did not believe as he did. I was shocked but he could never be tempted away from his ideals and beliefs no matter how many game-points or twenty dice swords he was offered.
So let my sad tale be a cautionary one for you, true believers. Christians, pagans and athiests interacting in a room for hours without murder. Staying friends despite differing views on the world, outlooks on life. I mean left unchecked where would all this lead to…
so please carry on fighting the good fight, knowing you are out there confirms so much of what I believe about the human race and your place in it.
(sorry about the poor spelling but I am trying to read the entrails of a goat and its making the keyboard sticky)
You know, the really sad thing is that I know people are going to look at your idiocy and cite it as proof that gaming is evil without ever looking at a rulebook, or even trying to figure out what it is all about.
I play Hackmaster, which is derived from the old Advanced Dungeons and Dragons ruleset. Not once have I ever been interested in spellcasting; not once have I ever considered that murder, torture, or any of that kind of thing is a real-life option in my life. Neither have any of my friends considered these things. All of us still go to church, and are strong Christians.
I am the Game Master of our group, and if one of my players resorted to torture, they would definitely not gain points. They would probably take major alignment hits, torture clearly being an Evil action, and their characters are all Chaotic Good. You see, the type of game a GM runs can make it what it is.
So play D&D, Hackmaster, or whatever your game of choice. They’re excellent ways to fellowship and enjoy one another’s company.
The worst thing that can honestly be said about them is that they take up a lot of time. If someone plays these games instead of working or maintaining their lives, then it’s not a good thing.
Taliesin,
The problem with your reply is that you assume because I am not a christian but a Pagan then I am automatically evil. This was the point of my post, to out this kind of closed minded “my beliefs are right and yours are wrong” thinking.
The fact that I am Pagan has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that I have been gaming since I was 17 (now 43). My point was that my gaming circle encompasses three completely seperate spiritual views of the world and none of these have ever been affected by the gaming milieu - the christian remained true to his faith, the athiest still believes in nothing not advocated by Mr Dawkins and I have found my own niche within an ancient tradition and we are all content with who we are and who are friends are.
We are all aware that RPG’s allow us to interact in ways that we would never condone or contemplate in real life - thats the fun of it - its fantasy. In that it is no different from watching fantasy films, horror films, or even cop shows, these all portray life in ways other than it is and generally include fantasy violence that would be truly shocking in any real-world sense but are acceptable as unrealistic escapism.
there are very few real world examples of murderers blaming thier games-master for thier actions but many many cases where such people claim to have been guided by god. Which then should we ban, the game or the religion?
(side issue - interesting nick name you have chosen, an ancient Celtic Bard who came through the druidic tradition, in fact Bard was a rank within the druid world and many researchers believe Taliesin was a rank - sort of chief bard - rather than the name of an individual )
You didn’t have to “out” anything. lol. I’d have told you that the occult is evil without much provocation.
See, Art, you and I don’t get to decide what is evil or not. It has been decided. We can choose to agree or not, but your assent, my assent does not make it so. The truths of the Bible are absolute truths. Their truthfulness is independent of anyone’s opinion.
As for who someone blames for their actions…I don’t know if you know this, but there are plenty of insane people out there who do insane things. If they say that their toothbrush told them to do it, do we ban toothbrushes? I’m not saying we should ban anything, mate…religion or gaming.
Our points regarding gaming are the same. Doing things in-game are not the same as doing them. I mention that my players would not resort to torture only to refute the point that you unilaterally gain points for doing so. I wouldn’t have a problem with an Evil-aligned character torturing someone for information, but Good characters doing so would earn what Hackmaster terms alignment infraction points, and they’re not desirable.
The truth is out there. Out there. Not here.
Extremely funny satire, though. Nice job.
Out there, as in “in the Bible”. Not with me. *I* have never claimed to know the full truth. There are obvious things, though. One can’t claim to know the Christian position without reading the Word of God. That’s pretty obvious.
It’s intolerant, hatemongering “Christians” like you that caused me to leave the church after more than 25 years of service. Spew your hate somewhere else.
I truly hope you’re talking to the original author of the blog, and not myself.
The original author, however, does not appear to be reading the comments on this post.
In addition, though there is no notice on the site stating such, it has been suggested that this blog is composed of satire. If it weren’t for plenty of people who are in reality like the satirical personality that writes in this blog, the satire might be easier to see.
Dear Taliesin,
thanks for your wise words. I am convinced and I need to change my ways and I need your help.
First and most obviously I need to read the bible. Just tell me which one, which translation etc. There are so many differences between the word of God depending whether you can read the original gospels (4 out of 13 I think it is) in Greek, or the first millenium Latin versions or the 17century King James English version. Please advise me on which one is the true one Thanks.
Then could you please tell me which sect of the Christian faith has got the interpretation right. Is it the Catholics, the Anglicans, Mormans, Methodists, Seventh day Adventists, Baptists, Anabaptists, Jehova’s witnesses, Apiscapalian, The Salvation Army, Greek Orthodox, Russion Orthodox, Gnostics, Pentacostal, Prebyterian, Congregationalists, Lutherans, Quakers, Branch Davidians, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists. This really concerns me becuase as you pointed out there is only one possible correct interpretation of the bible (a bible?) and I would hate to be condemned to hell for all eternity for picking the wrong one.
It may help me in my quest to decide which one if you could share with me your insight on this issue. I assume you have read up on all of the above sects and have decided (with the aid of prayer) which one contains the rightous and which ones are all going to hell for getting it wrong (that’s a very scary choice). I understand many people trust thier parent’s decision on this matter and follow thier choice as they are older and wiser than us, but this really worries me as then salvation becomes a zip-code lottery with some people being easily saved by luck of birthplace and others (I am thinking here about the 4.4 billion people not living in Christian countries) that must have a really hard time finding the word of God and defying thier parents.
And finally - I know I am asking for a lot of help here but as a lost soul I need the support. Which era was the best interpretation available. Was it in the days of Plenary Indulgence where you could pay the church for forgiveness, or the days of the Inquisition where the simple burning of a witch could earn your place in heaven, or was it the days where we could all gather together and stone people for adultery, homosexuality, eating meat on a Friday (all still requirements of the King James Bible)or are we so lucky to be born in the right age where our understanding of God’s will and plan is so complete we can clearly see who will and will not go to hell and how to gurantee our own salvation?
I am sorry to ask so many questions but its all so confusing I need a guide through all the traps for the unwary. We all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Yours
Awaiting Clarification
ArtUK
Your sarcasm is unnecessary. Also, since I know you’re not looking for answers but rather are wanting to mock, I don’t expect you to actually pay any attention to what I say here.
—————
To begin with, you mention the various translations of the Word of God, and mockingly ask which you should read. If you would actually read a couple of the English translations of the Word of God such as the English Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New International Version, or the New King James Version, you’d find that these differences you have read about are minor, at best, if existent at all. With regards to reading manuscripts in Greek and/or Hebrew, if you know those languages, feel free. As I said…the differences you’ll find will be minor.
The outlook on translation varies between a literal word-for-word translation of the original texts, vs. a thought-for-thought translation. Thought-for-thought translations ought to be somewhat avoided, if possible, since gauging what a passage MEANS could possibly involve interpretation, which is unnecessary in a translation. The NASB and ESV are the most literal of the recent translations and are regarded by ecumenical translation councils to be quite accurate. (Ecumenical meaning, of course, that they are composed of members of many denominations and churches of Christianity.)
With regards to the multiple gospels that people love to throw out, most of them are worthless, lacking in facts, and not in agreement with even secular historians, let alone the rest of the Bible (both Old and New Testaments.) The tests for canonicity (ought a book be included in the canon of the Bible?) are composed of several things, including, but not limited to: whether it was in use in the first century church; is it internally consistent with the rest of the word of God? (especially the Old Testament); was it historically accurate?; is it even what it claims to be? (The Gospel of Thomas is a great book, except that it’s NOT a Gospel, and wasn’t written by Thomas.); was the book authored by a prophet or God or an apostle?
Ultimately, if you were to pick up any of the English translations of the Bible (or a translation in your native language…chances are, it exists), you’ll be infinitely more informed regarding Christianity and its doctrines than you appear to be at this time.
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Next, you speak of the various denominations within Christianity. Allow me to say that if I claim to be a goldfish, that does not make me one. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. claim to be Christian denominations, but an examination of their beliefs quickly shows the informed just how different we are on many crucial points of doctrine. Historically the Church has held very few things to be requisite to be a Christian church. Most of the denominations within Protestantism differ on a few points. Many of the divisions are historical and minor. We would all consider ourselves to be brothers and sisters in Christ. Of one visible, catholic (lowercase ‘c’, meaning universal) church. The Jehovah’s Witness religion has to resort to their own translation of the Bible (the New World Translation), which is not held as scholarly by even most Greek scholars. The Mormons, of course, add their own Book of Mormon, which is not internally consistent with even the Bible (which they claim to believe), let alone history. The Roman Catholic Church, also, adds their own teachings to the Word of God, called Apostolic Tradition, etc.
If you merely read the Word of God, repent of your sins, and trust in the substitutionary atonement of Christ, you will be saved. I know I have fellow Christians in the Catholic church, and most, if not all the sects of Christianity. Do I believe every one of them are correct in all things? No, I believe none of us are correct in all things. As Paul said, now we see through a glass darkly. In the interest of full disclosure, I am a member at an Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Read the Word of God and test what you are taught by what it says. But by all means, read the Word of God, and inform yourself.
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With regards to you listing the past actions of man as refutations to the Word of God, it doesn’t matter. Again, read the Word of God, and tell me where indulgences are permitted? You won’t find it. Tell me where the Inquisition was encouraged? It wasn’t.
Try reading the Bible before determining what the requirements are. Look at the difference between the teachings of man (don’t eat meat on Fridays) vs. the teachings of God (homosexuality is a sin.) As for the stoning, those were commands for the theocracy that was set up for Israel. How do we know it’s different today? When confronted with an adulteress (the woman at the well), Jesus was frank about her sin. He was also frank about the fact that her people were worshiping incorrectly. He then told her to “go and sin no more.” A good command for all of us. We do not live in a theocracy (even in the UK), and we ought not try and recreate it.
Are those who practice adultery deserving of stoning? Yes, and worse. Are those who practice homosexuality deserving of stoning? Yes, and worse. But then again….SO ARE THOSE WHO LIE; those who cheat; those who steal. Anyone who has committed any sin at all.
But Christ’s death and resurrection was to save His people from their sins. He took the punishment we were due. And when we trust upon Him for our salvation, His righteousness is imputed to us. We could not live a perfect life, but he paid the penalty, and we gain the reward of His perfect life led.
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As I said…I know you’re not looking for answers, and merely wanting to mock. However, there ARE answers. Things aren’t as complicated as atheists would like everyone to believe.
Taliesin,
thanks for your thoughtful reply and I will attempt to do the same without the mocking tone (it will be difficult because that is my personality rather than purely a response to this subject matter).
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First let me say that you are mistaken in my intent, I start with this tone because so many of these conversations are not responded to thoughtfully (and in this I think you are slightly unusual on STR)so my rhetoric is often more mocking than serious. I would always classify myself as a seeker after knowledge and intelligent discourse is one of the best ways of trying to gain a better understanding of the world around us.
But let me highlight one difference between us at this point. I am open to having my beliefs challenged and this could lead to a change of heart and direction. I can probably say with some accuracy that no discourse will ever move you from the certainty of your own position. In the end you will decide I am damned for not conforming to your views (or the views of your holy book). So which one of us is truly seeking for understanding?
Putting that aside for a moment lets go over some of your arguments.
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OK - lets first begin with translations, origins and truth.
When any document is translated from one language to another there are many instances where interpretation of ideas is the only option as there are no direct word equivalents available. Translation is a very difficult task (especially so for the Hebrew texts in the old testament because of the vowel less way Hebrew is written) but this is also true of Greek to Latin and Latin to English. To give you some idea of the scale of the task and the possibility of misinterpretation lets look at just the translation of the new testament…
There are some 5,700 ancient Greek manuscripts that are the basis of the modern versions of the New Testament, and scholars have uncovered more than 200,000 differences in those texts. Put it this way: There are more variances among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament. Most of these are, admittedly, inconsequential errors in grammar or metaphor. But others are profound. The last 12 verses of the Gospel of Mark appear to have been added to the text years later — and these are the only verses in that book that show Christ reappearing after his death. Another critical passage is in 1 John, which explicitly sets out the Holy Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). It is a cornerstone of Christian theology, and this is the only place where it is spelled out in the entire Bible — but it appears to have been added to the text centuries later, by an unknown scribe. My personal favourite is in the translation of a single word from Hebrew to English (and is carried in the King James version). In the line “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” there has been much debate over the original word, many Hebrew scholars believe the word “witch” was mistranslated from the Hebrew word for “poisoner”. This one mistranslation alone could have cost the lives of up to 50,000 herbalists and folk-practitioners during the so called burning times.
and let me please reiterate “there is no such thing as a straight word for word translation between any two modern languages let alone between an ancient and modern language - all translators have to make judgements about meaning to complete the job”. Just knowing this should mean that everyone should be very wary of a literal translation of the bible.
You also mention the “test of canonicity” being internally consistent. From my point of view this is the same of saying “only include those things that support those we have already included”. Another view would be to say that any gospel that supported the fact that Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies would be included even if only mentioned in one of the gospels. Surely there would be a valid argument to say include all these texts and let people decide for themselves.
The next point you make is that you can claim all you want that you are a goldfish but that don’t make it so. The thing is that there are objective tests available for goldfishness so your assertion would be easy to test. With the denominational problem there is no objective test. I am sure that a Jehovah’s Witness or Mormon would claim to be as Christian as you are and absolutely be sure of that fact. You seem to object to the Roman Catholic church claiming to be Christian as well, this has to be one of the most baseless of your assertions as it was this church (from 400ad onwards) that had total control over all texts pertaining to Christ and it was this church that decided what was and wasn’t the word of god. Was it not Paul himself that sanctified the Roman church’s leader by expressing that whatever the pope held to be true on earth God would make true in heaven. As for most of the history of Christianity any belief that varied from the catholic doctrine was considered heresy and its adherents excommunicated (therefore condemned to hell) then your very recent tradition has no history to back up its claims to be a true Christian faith.
You then point out that the past actions of man made in the name of god does not in any way invalidate the faith. I have two problems with this, the first is that in their day I am sure that the church hierarchy would have been able to point to a passage in the bible that would justify their position (see, thou shalt not suffer a witch to live and the rise of the inquisition). Secondly, I can only judge an institution by the actions of its adherents. So if I look back through the history of the Christian church it made a very quick transition from oppressed to oppressor. So many atrocities have been carried out in the name of the Christian god that it has to make me wary of following that god. Its easy to go back as far as the inquisition to support this position but we needn’t go back anywhere near that far. Look at the last 100 years in Northern Ireland and the misery and suffering caused by two Christian sects at work, look at Albanian, Croatian ethnic cleansing. Look at the church doing nothing to combat the rise of Nazism, look at the Bishops supporting Franco in the 30’s. Listen to the American Fundamentalists calling for hate crimes against those who do not believe as they do. Look at the upstanding white Christians who formed the KKK, and on and on and on. Now you may say that all these were the works of man not god, but they were the works of man claiming to perform the Christian’s god will as laid out in the bible - this book has been used to justify more hate, venality and personal aggrandisement than any other text in history. Again how I am I supposed to separate the faith and the actions of the people that follow that faith?
I must admit to having some sympathy with your arguments until you get to your final paragraphs where you agree that being an adulteress (but not adulterer), liar, homosexual deserves stoning to death. I may be a bit hazy on this point but I cannot remember the 10 commandments (overall not a bad list of sins) say anything about man lying with man (I am also pretty sure that the bible does not mention woman lying with woman). I read the version in both Deuteronomy and Exodus to check this.
Finally, as many Christians do, you rebuke arguments in a piecemeal fashion. You did not mention the 4.4 billion who live in non-Christian countries and their potential for salvation. You make no mention of other religions and their holy books and the validity or lack thereof of their relationship with God. Christ himself claimed that he had not come to earth to start a new religion, he was a Jewish Rabbi preaching to Jews a message of love and tolerance, Christianity is now a sect of the Jewish faith, does that mean all Jews (god’s chosen people for most of recorded history) are now going to hell?
My final defence, you assume that I am an atheist. This is not true, I have deeply felt and held relationship with the divine. I have spent many years searching for the best way to live up to that relationship and to be a decent human being. In the end I found the paths of pre-Christian faith to be more honest, free and personally enlighten than the dogma of any brand monotheistic faith.
to finish by quoting Maya Angelou. At 80 years old or so I saw her interviewed and the final question asked of her was “what do you have left to achieve”. Her answer was lovely, she said ” I want to become a Christian”, the interviewer looked surprised and asked if she was not already a Christian, her answer was “I always try to be Christian but it is a very hard path to live up to but I am trying”.
If people would spend more time examining their own relationship with the divine and less time condemning others for not sharing the same views the world would be a much happier (and less sinful?) place.
sorry this was so long but your post deserved a more thorough reply than I normally pen on a blog like this.
wishing you all the best
ArtUK
I cannot speak to your points regarding translations at this time. I’m at work, while most of my resources are at home. I’m also shorter on time at this point. :)
With regards to who considers themselves Christians, most denominations would consider most other denominations to be Christians. The fact is, the Mormons, in adding their own writings to the Word of God fall so far outside the pale of orthodoxy as to be a non-issue. The Jehovah’s Witnesses mistranslate the Word of God in their own New World Translation that they reject basic Christian doctrines such as the deity of Christ (something many assert that Christ never claimed, but the Jews certainly seemed to disagree, as they sought to kill Him for making Himself equal to God), and their doctrines of hell. These doctrines are equivalent to being Christian.
With regards to Catholicism, we have the writings of the Roman Catholic church to see where they began to become a religion of man vs. what it once was. I have no doubt that they began well, but when Constantine made it the state religion of the Roman Empire, things began to disintegrate. (Despite what many critics claim, not all Christians are interested in instituting a theocracy…even in the U.S.) The introductions of concepts like Purgatory, penance, indulgences, acceptance of the Apocrypha as inspired scripture…all of these things were added as the teachings of man. Regardless of their claim to be able to condemn anyone to hell, that right remains with God. The Catholic belief that the Church has authority over the Word and orthodoxy does not change the fact that those who trusted in Christ and stood up for their faith will end up in heaven, regardless of the Catholic church’s excommunication of these martyrs.
I also do not see anywhere in Paul’s writings any mention of a pope or supreme Christian leader. In 400 AD, I don’t know that the Catholic church had yet fallen into apostasy. By the end of the Dark Ages, the medieval church had fallen into corruption, however, and this change in their doctrine is documented in their own writings. The Catholic church as it now stands places far too much emphasis on the works of the individual, worship of the “saints”, prayer to mary, allowing too many images in worship, all of which is either not found in Scripture, or is expressly forbidden in Scripture.
With regards to the Inquisition or the witch burnings or the KKK or any number of other atrocities perpetrated in the name of Christ, I say again that you can’t hold those against Christianity. How can you separate the actions of men claiming authority from God from Christianity? It’s simple…read the Word of God for yourself and see if it’s compatible with what these people are doing. If you want to dismiss it all as a man-made religion, fine. Dismiss it all. But don’t do so because there are insane people or hateful, murderous people out there who are looking to twist the scriptures to fit their own ends. You say that the inquisition had verses to support their activities. Ok, what verses? Let’s look at them and determine whether they were merely twisted, or whether we really ought to coerce people to faith in Christ. (Ludicrous…but there are those who have baselessly believed that was a good idea.) Witch hunts likewise. While there are plenty of verses that support the sinfulness of witchcraft, one ought not mistake the civil laws of Israel with the moral principles or moral law. The church does not (or ought not) live by the sword. That is why we don’t stone sinners these days. Rather, we preach a message of forgiveness, without compromising on their sin.
As for me mentioning an adulteress, but not adulterer, I was not listing a comprehensive list of sins. The woman at the well was not an adulterer….she was an adulteress. Since I was using that as an example, I specifically mentioned adulteress, but adulterers are no better. The woman at the well is often listed as a reason why we ought to be tolerant of sin. My point was that while Christ did not indeed stone her, He was very clear about her sin, and commanded her to go and sin no more.
In addition, the 10 commandments are not the whole of the moral law. So while the 10 commandments do not mention homosexuality, it is mentioned elsewhere with regards to both men and women. It is clearly a sin, according to the Bible.
With regards to the 4.4 billion living in non-Christian countries, salvation does not require living in a Christian nation, of which America IS NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN. (Another argument, but something that annoys me to no end…) Salvation requires faith in Christ, and trusting in Him. “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” - Romans 10:9. Out of the 4.4 billion people you mention, how many of them have never once heard the Gospel? How many of them have never had the opportunity? I don’t know those numbers, but I suspect them of being far smaller.
However, even for those who have not heard, there is none innocent…not one. Every one of them deserves death just as much as me. (And obviously, I’m not referring to stoning, though I have seen enough of my own heart to know that if I were stoned, I would have earned it a million times over. Being forgiven is a relief.) The Lord didn’t have to save a single one of us. That He has chosen to save any men or women at all is an infinite amount of grace. I can’t say for sure whether they’re saved or now. I can say that Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but by me.” I do not have authority over their souls, but I do know that all they have to do is trust in Christ to be saved. They don’t have to wear a WWJD bracelet (don’t get me started on those), or go to a worship service to be saved. They don’t even have to be baptized, as was evidenced by the thief on the cross. They merely have to trust in Christ.
Christ did not come to start a new religion…no. He pointed out many times, though, that the Pharisees of His time had it wrong. That from the beginning, Abraham looked forward to Christ’s day and was glad. Abraham’s faith in Christ was credited to him as righteousness. Obviously, it wasn’t specifically Jesus Christ that Abraham had faith in, but the coming of the Messiah. Salvation has from the beginning always been the same. In the time of the Patriarchs, it was looking forward to the Son of Eve who would crush the head of the serpent, as promised to Adam and Eve in the garden. It was looking forward to the spotless lamb of God shown in the passover…the perfect sacrifice as was shown in so many pictures in the Old Testament. Not everyone who was descended of Abraham would be saved. Just as not everyone who professes to be Christian today will be saved. (Professing faith and having faith are two different things.) Then, as now, however, we are not given the ability to judge between true faith and false faith. We can judge acts, practices, etc. If someone says they want to worship God by sacrificing their firstborn child, we can look at that, compare it to Scripture and say “This is wrong for a couple different reasons. For one, you shall not murder. For two, God has never allowed human sacrifice in worship of Him.”
Most of the Jews of Jesus’ time rejected Him. Those Jews will go to hell if they never repented and trusted in Christ. Jews today are in the same boat. Jesus Christ is merely fulfillment of what the Jewish religion looked forward to…the coming of the Messiah.
Other religions often do not address the problem of sin. If Jesus is the door by which we may come to the Father, any other attempt to draw near to God is unacceptable. Not by me…I didn’t create the rules. By God.
As for Christianity justifying hate, this is sad to me. I’ll not deny that there are people who have sought to hate in the name of Christ. But it is not supported by the Word of God. Christ did not tolerate sin at all. But that doesn’t mean He sought to beat people to death. He called people to follow Him. He encouraged them to stop sinning. But he never said, “I’m ok, you’re ok.” He was clear on what is sin. If more Christians would follow His example, then tragedies like the Matthew Shepard murder would not happen. Yes, homosexuality is wrong. However, beating someone to death for ANY reason is not justified. Legislation against gay marriage is also stupid. If churches want to preach out against homosexuality, that is their job. Preach the Gospel, and encourage people to turn from their sins is one thing. Attempting to legislate it is ridiculous.
As for the Maya Angelou quote, I will agree, with reservations. Being a Christian has nothing to do with an individual’s works. Since we are not saved by our works, being a Christian is not something we earn by being good people. I will agree with her that living up to Christ’s example is something we’ll never attain in this life. It’s something we ought to strive tirelessly for. In that respect, she’s very correct. Living a Christlike life is an impossibility. And it’s not an easy road to walk.
Sharing the Gospel, however, is important. We don’t say “live like me!” We encourage others to live like Christ. But that does not mean we can tolerate sin being called virtue.
And Art, thank you for your reply. It was thoughtful, and I appreciate this. Discussion is nice without feeling like I’m being attacked by a vengeful, spiteful jerk. THAT is rare…especially on the Internet.
Taliesin,
This is getting closer to the nub of things.
Before I go any further I need to make it clear that I am not arguing with the aim of dissuading you from your religion (understanding that no arguement of mine could do so) but to try to get you to accept on some level that other views on the divine can and do have equal merit to your own, are as internally consistant as yours, are adhered to as passionately as yours, are as testable by reference to history and scripture as yours. I think this is a big ask and I suspect I am going to fail but sometimes it is important to try.
God admits to requiring faith from her creation rather than turning up on our doorstep and giving us proof. The existance of the divine is not susceptable to the empirical nature of our science so there is no help there. So human beings each come to their own understanding of the nature of God. Often this understanding is taught by a Church and accepted as dogma by that Church’s adherents, it is also reinforced by parents and in some cases by the society we live in (please note that whilst the western worlds governments may be too secular for you they are WAY to religious for my tastes).
To try and get to the grist of my position I want to use a hypothetical meeting between two young men of different tribes.
Both men grew up as dutiful sons to loving parents, both were educated in both science and theology, both attended church meetings (one on a Sunday and one on a Friday), both felt the love of a divine god in their hearts. Both read thier tribes’ most holy works, written down by man but claiming to be inspired by the will of god. Both found much meaning in their lives from these holy texts and tried to live as good examples of decent human beings.
Both societies they lived in respected the laws of thier religion, both suggested that mankind was flawed and needed to find a place in gods house by submission to the spirit of their faith, by practicing acts of charity and forgiveness, by being faithful to vows taken before their lord, vows of marriage, abstinence and faithfullness to the word of God.
Now both these men found such joy in the practice of their faith that they felt the world should share in the joy of their (and only) God and set out to bring the good word to those who had not yet heard.
These men meet one day on a dusty desert road. Each then tries to bring their message to the other. After hours and hours of revealing the truth to each other both come to understand that the other is an irredemable sinner who is blind to the truth. Worse each knows the other is travelling the land to spread their false religion, corrupting others as they go. After a full day of debate both men retire and pray. Pray for the strength to be a good devotee, to act justly and in the name of God.
The next day both men are found dead having poisoned each other’s water in the night…..and God wept.
Which man was right and which was wrong? If I were to say to you one was Christian and the other Muslim, you would know who was right and wrong. If I said one was Hindu and the other Buddhist you would declare them both wrong. If one was a Catholic and the other a Protestant again you would make a decision as to who was right and who was wrong.
From what I see of the two young men it cannot be judged by anyone but God because knowledge is not given to us only faith.
For me there is no way of knowing which young man had apprehended the truth, I could have read both holy works and found much good contained inside and also much that would trouble me. I would find much that was similar between the works, both are outcroppings of humanity touched by the divine. Neither carries a stamp of authenticity. Both require faith from the reader to have any meaning at all and both are equally non-sensical to the atheist reader. This being true then the death of both men was caused by nothing more than arrogance and intransigence.
We know this meeting has happened countless times through the ages, we know that many of these meetings have ended in wars and the deaths of hundreds of thousand if not millions.
There is no test of holiness other than the actions of ones life.
I am happy for you that you have faith in the way you were brought up, faith in the book you hold to explicate god’s will. I am also happy for the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist who act in good faith and search for meaning and substance in life whilst being good to their neighbours and tolerent of those with differing views.
(please note I have used the hypothetical in this case rather than specific examples from one or more religious text to deflect this from being an attack on your book, your religion. Further debate on the voracity of the bible would not lead to any sort of conclusion but I am happy to carry on down that line if you would prefer)
regards
ArtUK
I definitely don’t have time to respond now, or maybe even tonight, but I want to make one thing clear.
My government in particular is NOT too secular. I don’t think I made my political views clear, and they’re not uber-relevant to the conversation, but apart from a couple basic, humanistic, morals such as not hurting others in a measurable, quantifiable way, I think governments have NO BUSINESS legislating morality.
Prostitution bans, gambling bans, alcohol restrictions, drug bans….all of this is no business of the government. None at all.
Many Christians here think it would be a good idea to establish some sort of pseudo-theocracy, I think that would be the worst sort of government ever.
America was founded on a principle of Congress not establishing any law concerning the practice of a religion. We’ve come far one way, where Christianity is prosecuted for praying in schools (not good, since that’s persecuting a religion), to the Christian end of things, where they want to establish laws based on the Bible. That is the realm of churches, and not governments. This is why I am not partial to a ban on homosexual marriage in this country. It’s a sin, yes. But the government is not a church and has no business acting like it is.
Anyway, gotta go for now.
ArtUK,
To begin with, I never really spoke to your issues regarding translations. I’m going to cover that in this, the first of my two main replies.
I don’t know where you’re getting your information, unless you learned Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic and examined the manuscripts yourself.
Gleason Archer in his work A Survey of the Old Testament has stated that,
He also stated in the same work that it was amazing that the Hebrew text compared to pre-Christian literature such as the Egyptian Book of the Dead is amazingly far more free of discrepancy and manuscript change. (McDowell, A Ready Defense, 1993).
In addition to the shepherding of the Holy Spirit of His revealed word, Archer attributes this to the unbelievably strict rules for copying the Word of God of the Talmudic scholars.
What people have found, when studying, is that the differences in manuscript evidence are so minor as to change no meanings that are crucial to one’s understanding of the main doctrines of the Word of God.
With regards to the translation of “witch”, I would explain that this is really inconsequential, since the real sin with regards to burning witches at the stake or killing them in any manner lies in the murdering…not the fact that they did it because they suspected these herbalists of witchcraft. The Bible is not without plenty of evidence that divinity, sorcery, and witchcraft is a sin…plain and clear. That one passage is not alone in explaining this. However, the church is not permitted to kill in defense of the faith, regardless of whether or not one interprets any one action to be sin. The sword is given to the State to prosecute civil offenses. The church, regardless of the actions of the church in the past, is not permitted to usurp the position of the civil government. Again, do not mistake the actions of sinful man as the teachings of Scripture. You may read the Bible and see whether or not the actions of any individual or group are consistent with the teachings of the Bible. It’s not actually all that difficult.
Ultimately, all this talk of translations and manuscript evidence is inconsequential as well, because your qualms with Christianity are with regards to its exclusivity, which I’ll cover in my next post.
You ask me to be willing to accept that other views in direct contradiction to the Word of God are as valid as those of Christianity. The problem with this is that Christ stated “I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.” IF I believe this, and I have every rational reason to do so, then I cannot accept that other views could be true. I could just as easily ask you to be ready to accept that Christianity is the only way to heaven, and that all other attempts to reach for God will end in eternal damnation. You would never concede that this could be true.
Your hypothetical is moot with regards to Christianity. The teachings of the Bible say that both men would have sinned by poisoning the other’s water. I, personally, would wonder at a Christian who thought that the Lord commanded him to kill someone. It is completely inconsistent with the Word of God, and if a hypothetical “Christian” claimed that the Word of God commanded him to kill all irredeemable sinners, I could easily demonstrate his reasoning to be based on something other than the Bible.
I cannot be happy with someone who has found Hinduim, Muslimism, Buddhism, etc., because it results in their damnation. THAT is taught in the Bible quite clearly. However, I cannot force anyone to be a Christian. That is between them and God.
If I were meeting one of the hypothetical man on a dusty desert road, I would converse with him. I would hope we could be respectful of one another, because I believe Christ was respectful of those He encountered. However, I could not budge on anything contrary to the Word of God. Knowing that he was going on to another land to spread his religion would be saddening to me, but I know that I am not the sole voice contending for the faith in this world. I also know that I do not have the right or responsibility to take anyone’s life for not being a believer. If it was his goal to poison my water, then I would end up dead, which would be gain. I would fall asleep praying, as I do for you, that the Lord would reveal Himself to the other man. I would pray that someone at his next destination would come forward and defend the faith, perhaps to their death as well. And when I awoke, if I were poisoned, I would find myself in the presence of God and His Christ. I would hope that He would say to me “Well done, good and faithful servant”, but even in my fallen state, I know, as Maya Angelou said, that I have failed to live up to the perfect example set by Christ. But I have been forgiven. My sins have been covered by Christ’s blood, and His perfect life has been imputed to me, through no work of my own.
But you mention that the 10 commandments is a good list of sins. That could have been sarcasm, but which of these sins you have committed against a holy God keeps you from running to Christ, asking Him to forgive you?
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not bow down to a graven image.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor Your Father and Mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s possessions.
I can tell you that I have broken every one of those commandments, as defined by Jesus. (See the sermon on the Mount for the broad application of “you shall not murder”. We’re all guilty of these things. Keeping the law was never a way to heaven, as the Jews thought in the time of Christ. The law was designed to point us to our need for a Savior. No other religion, no matter how sincerely, covers this lack….a mediator between a perfect and holy God and a sinful, wretched man. That is Christ. Christianity IS a religion of love. The Lord sent His only begotten Son, even while we were all yet sinning, Who died for our sins. That’s love. To be sinned against far more egregiously than any man has ever been sinned against, but to put that aside to provide a way for salvation. THAT is love.
It is not a religion of tolerance of sin, however. Sin is sin, and we ought to struggle against it in our own lives. I think the Church has been focusing way too much on external things in the last 75 years or more, though. Yes, homosexuality is a sin. But getting a homosexual to stop sinning does nothing for his or her soul. He or she needs to repent of his or her sin, sure…but he or she also needs to trust in Christ. From that genuine repentance, and the Lord’s conversion of that person’s heart, He will begin to show them their sin, thankfully bit by bit.
The church needs to focus on presenting as many people as possible with the Gospel. The Gospel is not to make people “better people”. The Gospel is to restore a right relationship to God as defined by God….not as defined by sinful man.
The question is, and it’s mostly rhetorical, since I don’t demand an answer of you…God does… “What are you doing with Christ?” The Christ who definitely existed, and who preached a message and converted people who turned the world upside down. The church in its infancy was not powerful. They were self-proclaimed cowards who fled after Christ’s execution. They were small in number…especially against the numbers of the Jews and Romans. They had no power. These men would not have given their lives for a lie. They were there…they proclaimed the miracles of Christ, and none stood against their claims. There was no conspiracy, because for the first 400 years, they did not have power, money, etc.
What are you doing with Christ? I’ll tell you right now that in this life, we have our only chance. Your disdain for the Truth does not change one iota of whether or not it’s true. Your refusal to accept God’s authority over you and your actions does not mean He has no authority. Same with me.
As I said before…I don’t have it all right. I am flawed human. But my life has been transformed by His Holy Spirit. I now seek to eradicate sin in my own life. Sometimes, I do well, sometimes not so much, but the Lord has saved me.
So what will you do with Christ?
I think this will likely be my last post on the subject. I’m sure I’ll come and read any responses, but it seems as though we’ve hit an impasse. You wish me to say that other faiths have as much validity, when they do not. I’m more than happy to examine my own beliefs about the Word of God. But to throw away the Word of God is just something that wouldn’t make sense, and that is what would be required to accept other faiths.
Art, thank you for the conversation. If we met on a dusty desert road, I’d be happy to have the same conversation with you. But you’d need not fear for your life from me, or from any true believer. Please stop judging Christianity based on the actions of worldly men. When men choose to ignore the Scriptures, they do not represent Christ or His true church. How will you know whether or not their actions represent the true teachings of Scripture? Well, you’ve got to KNOW what the Bible teaches, and the only way to do that is to read it.
Not all who claim to be Christians are so merely because they claim to be so. You can hear me or others talk about the three tests of a true Church, or what we call the essential doctrines of the Christian faith from here until eternity. But you need to judge whether or not those claims derive their authority from the Scriptures.
I will say that your perception of the Christian faith is flawed. I encourage you to search the Scriptures and see where.
Thank you again for the conversation, and may the Lord reveal Himself to you in the pages of His Word. It’s not some miraculous pillar of fire these days, but He is very real. May he soften your heart to the Truth.
BTW, for further reading on what I posted regarding translations, please see Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Joshua McDowell. (The new edition of the book may be New Evidence that Demands a Verdict, BTW.) It’s a great summation of the various arguments for textual accuracy of the Bible.
The book I was quoting from was A Ready Defense, which is a compilation of the main points of the McDowell book, compiled by Bill Wilson.
[...] dressed as trolls and ogres and goths, followed-up by a global seance in an attempt to raise Gary Gygax’s corpse to life as a multi-class lvl 32 Dungeon Master / Barbarian ambidextrous [...]
No trolls over here… wait! theres one….never mind, thats just the creator of this article…
Gary Gygax is burning in Hell as we speak, do ‘role-players’ want to join him, forever playing table-top games and drinking mountain dew, suffering Eternal diabetic Hellfire?
sign me up! sounds more like heaven than hell o_0
@Kman haha nice job dude rofl :P.
Taliesin,
final posting on the matter, just a few last bullet points.
1) From you arguements I wish that most of those people who would call themselves Christian would take your approach to being on-message.
2) You ask that I judge the word not the works of its followers. I just cannot do that, there are too many actions justified by reference to that work that are anti-humanity for me to be forgiving.
3) In terms of the desert conversation - my stance remains the same (although glad you would not poison me :) that I could meet a Muslim, Hindu etc and have EXACTLY the same theological debate with them as strong in thier faith as you are in yours. I could read the books and still have no idea who as got it right (if anyone).
4) My final point - and I suppose the hardest for you to take - is that if you had been born in Mumbai you would now be a devoted Hindu. If you have been born in Tel-Aviv you would be a devoted Hew and if you had been born in the United Arab Emerates you would be a devoted Muslim with just as strong a set of convictions about the faith of your parents and culture.
there is (in a loose sense) only one commandment in the path I follow and that is.
“An it harm NONE do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, law under love”, this single admonition is as hard to live up to as the perfect life of Christ.
It has been an interesting thread and thank you for taking the care to respond thoughtfully.
I wish you all the best and may your God go with you.
Art
Wow, you christians are just wildly stupid and barking mad.
This was seriously the stupidest, craziest thing I’ve read in maybe years. All that stupid christian hype died out in the 1980s.
Just wow.
I’d gladly sit at Gary’s left hand. I’d follow him through green fields or through sulfur fires. You christians are so benighted, so devoid of imagination and critical thought that it pains me.
Far better to reign in hell than to spend eternity in heaven with the likes of you.
You are a horrible person. If there’s someone who’s going to hell, that’s definitely you.
There’s a nice spot in the seventh circle, next to most of the inquisition members. You oughta get along well.
and that is the truth persephone just keep reading their articles they make allister crowley look like a saint.
Oh lordy. Have you really been doing this for 9 years? Nice read, but you’re a bit of a sadist yourself for allowing comments. This ain’t Gotham and you know? You shouldn’t give both ferries the detonators for the other boat like this.